Dr. Jen & Dr. Sally


Reflecting on the Goals, Flavors & Lessons of the Radical Emergence Podcast

pRINCIPLES transformation

THE RADICAL EMERGENCE PODCAST was (is) a collaboration between two unabashed transformation-geeks, both living, learning, and researching the ubiquitous phenomenon of change that exists at all scales.

We (Dr. Sally Adnams Jones and Dr. Jen Peer Rich) came together to explore transformation from a variety of perspectives and traditions - including personal, social, ecological, cosmological, as well as historical and cross-cultural.  Each of our 26 episodes explores one aspect of 'How We Transform' -  on different levels of reality.


Our informal conversations are deeply researched across multiple disciplines, thereby integrating neuroscience, psychology, philosophy, ecopsychology, evolutionary development, decolonization, and Feminist Standpoint theory, along with common spiritual teachings from the great perennial and pre-modern traditions.

We share our accumulated and combined knowledge, both from our formal Ph.D. studies in the dynamics of transformation, as well as from our experiences with trauma and healing on the often tumultuous ground of our own lives. To do this, we set out to create a robust container that offers practical tools as well as inspiration, so that listeners can embrace the powerful flow of their own transformation.

The series is metamodern in tone - we consciously crafted episodes that are approachable, casual, and anecdotal as well as deeply informed, as we aimed to bridge between academia and those curious listeners keen to discover a panentheistic, process-oriented view of the world.

Our two-week production cycles over the year involved researching, recording, editing, and publishing episodes, which evolved into more fun than work, because our passion for the topic made the discipline of serious research so rewarding. We structured the format to include grounded information, drawing from many great thinkers and artists, as well as a free flow from our hearts, through personal storytelling, in order to appeal to a variety of listeners and meet their diverse needs.


One lesson we experienced along the way, is that when you dance with transformation, transformation might dance with you! Our relationship with transformation has been experienced as highly reciprocal and participatory. Focusing on transformation seems to open one’s life and perspective up to an increased amount of transformation on all levels.

We ask:

Is transformation actually happening more when we talk about it, through the power of logos, or is it just that when we are more keenly focused on it, we become more aware of it all around us?

We are willing and capable volunteer dance partners, who have given this podcast away for free. But we are also grateful that the podcast has done well. Folks from all walks of life seem to be interested in transformation. The Listen Notes website, for example, a company that determines where funders should spend their money on marketing opportunities, reviewed more than 3 million podcasts, determining the popularity of a show by comparing it to other ‘simple syndication-based podcasts’, and ranked us in the top ten percent of podcasts, globally. Apple, too, has independently given it a 5/5 score.

We have so loved co-creating together, with easy flow, that this is just the beginning for us. We are going to do much more together. Our first in-person meeting will be later this year. Sally, an expressive arts therapist, will travel from Vancouver Island, where she writes and paints amongst a herd of wild elk who live on her lawn, to Florida, where Jen, an author, lives on a lake full of alligators, tortoises and roseate spoonbills.

We will share a few margaritas at sunset, listen to the frogs, and drift into beginners’ mind together, to co-create something(s) truly emergent. We are always excited to embody the fractal process of great emergence itself, through our own creativity, while inspiring other people to do the same. We believe this loop of love births through each of us, a better future, one that works for all beings who call our precious Earth ‘home’.

In the meantime, we are developing a learning incubator for those who wish to go deeper into the podcast curriculum - offering guided experiential opportunities for profound meditative, somatic and creative practices, as opportunities to apply, embody and integrate insights more effectively. We also intend to create and distribute creative content through a variety of multimedia products, that communicate and advance emerging metamodern narratives, sensibilities and wisdom.


Sally, who forest-bathes daily to investigate the magic of fungi and other natural phenomena, is presently completing a book she calls ‘Integral Taoism’, which is a cross cultural and four quadrant integration of both ancient and contemporary polarity work, that reveals itself to be, not only a transformative dialectic, but also a truly perennial metaphysics. Jen is sitting by the lake, completing a metamodern memoir, while flexing her  renovation skills on a dream design for her new-forever home. They meet regularly online to inspire each other.


Please feel free to join them in community, and conscious conversation, along with other like-minded and like-hearted integral friends, every Wednesday, at noon EST, on Clubhouse in the Integral Leadership Room. Come be with us! 

Whether a longtime listener to the show, or a newcomer, they hope that you’ll find practical value and wisdom for your own ongoing journey of transformation. Find them at:
Words by Dr. Jen & Dr. Sally