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Embodiment as a ‘door to presence’ and possibilities
An interview with Emily Poel
COHERE+
28.8.2025
I DISCOVERED EMILY POEL THROUGH HER recent appearance on Tim Logan’s ‘Future Learning Design’ podcast, and was drawn to her ability to articulate the range of possibilities that is opened to us when we enter into more embodied states. In that conversation she put forth the idea that ‘thinking is moving’, which instinctively felt true to me, if I consider the contexts in which I usually think (and sense) best: walking and dancing.
Emily began her career as a professional dancer before opening a bodywork practice in which she still works one-on-one with clients, in addition to years of teaching movement and concentration classes. A decade ago she co-founded Embodiment at Work, which ‘emphasizes the connection between bodily awareness and intelligence’ and works with teams and organizations to integrate embodiment practices into various work settings. More recently she co-founded Empathic Organization, and she’s currently co-authoring a book on embodied learning with Guy Claxton (Bodies of Learning: How Embodiment Science Transforms Education, coming out in 2026 with Routledge).
It was wonderful to include Emily in this series of profiles for the Cohere+ project, as embodiment is often referenced within the ecosystems that we’ve been studying, and yet a more nuanced understanding of how it can influence social change, let alone how it differs from somatics, is rarely discussed. Emily speaks from over a decade of experience as a practitioner as well as having done extensive reading in the field, and so our conversation went into some of the latest scholarly work on embodiment (and interoception), as well as her desire to make these insights tangible, practical, and beneficial in our daily lives. She convincingly argues that embodiment ‘makes us better thinkers and learners’ and has the potential to increase empathy in our interpersonal lives. As you read, I invite you to try out a few of her ideas and examples, even in micro-movements and moments of awareness, and experiment with whether the act of reading about embodiment can also coexist with a lived, visceral experience of it.
Empathic Organization New Movement Movement Weekly Online Practice. Photo credit: Lucas Adrian
Leigh Biddlecome: Emily, you’ve had such a range of experiences and work, from being a professional dancer to teaching embodiment, working with corporations and non-profits, and now writing a book. What would you say is the thread that runs throughout?
Emily Poel: In all these different contexts, I'm advocating for practicing and living from an embodied point of view. Whether it's working with individual clients, which I've done for the past 20 years, or facilitating a group of school administrators in southern Germany, or teaching workshops on creative thinking or resilience, or working on the book over the past two years – the thread is an intentionally embodied approach. Or in other words, guiding people to notice their usual habits and how those happen in their bodies and then stepping into intentionally moving more, interacting more, trying different simple awareness exercises, and noticing how that feels and what happens to thinking and decision-making processes as a result.
It’s been such an interesting journey to get here! Around 2014 I had a very strong need to move outside of my bodywork practice at the time where I was giving one-on-one sessions, teaching workshops and classes, and spending all day in the same space. For a number of reasons I realized I had to get out into the world again. Something needed to crack open.
That was when Embodiment at Work was born, co-founded with my husband, Erik [Winter], who works in the same field. Our approach emphasizes practicing and integrating embodied awareness in different work settings, ideally as a very normal part of a typical day and together with colleagues. Once the basic principles are learned, they can be applied in any context, whether it’s leadership, daily resilience and well-being, innovation processes or team development. Ideally teams practice together to get the best results, but getting everyone together is often easier said than done.
Embodiment at Work facilitating at the Fellows Forum for the Kreativbund Germany. Photo credit: Mina Gerngross
It's been a huge learning curve for us over the past ten years. Bringing an embodied approach into corporate spaces has been eye-opening and harder than I anticipated. There’s a lot of talk around both innovation and well-being, but there can be a surprising amount of resistance to actually putting those ideas into daily practice, even with the best intentions. That said, when we do find a match with a forward-thinking organization or team who truly wants to do things differently, there's an amazing synergy that starts to happen that never ceases to fascinate and surprise me.
Leigh: Before going further, can you help describe embodiment and how it differs from somatics? My own sense is that both terms are experiencing a massive upsurge in interest – and that there is also a lot of co-opting, misunderstanding, and misuse.
Emily: Yes, there’s a lot of overlap and much that still needs to be clarified in the field, but I’m glad that it’s becoming more well-known. Covid made embodiment more visible and relevant because people suddenly recognized the connections between movement, human contact and physical and mental health much more clearly, and the importance of all those daily human interactions we normally didn’t think about. That was a good thing for embodiment, but I feel that wave has somewhat subsided. Now it feels like a bit of a free-for-all on a wide spectrum that includes everything from embodied performance optimization techniques and neurohacking to trauma-informed social justice work and embodied sense-making, all of which have their place, of course, it just can sometimes be a lot to take in!
I think people interested in the field will have to sift through all the offerings and methods that are out there, talk to people about their experiences and try out a lot of different things to see what fits their current needs and go from there. For me, performance optimization really isn’t the point, although I think it’s often a natural side effect of a more embodied approach to personal and professional development. The added awareness can make us better learners and thinkers which is a lot of what the upcoming book with Guy [Claxton] is about. It’s called Bodies of Learning: How Embodiment Science Transforms Education and is coming out with Routledge in 2026.
To get back to your question, though: in my understanding, the term somatics refers to developing more bodily awareness for personal development using things like movement, breathing, voice and posture work to increase awareness of felt experience. Embodiment is a broader term that brings in cognitive science and psychology, academics and philosophy, and is about how we can better understand and integrate awareness of body, mind, emotions, and environment as we move through life.
STATE Studio presentation during Berlin Science Week: Updating Descartes: We Think With Our Bodies with Dr. Kerstin Lücker. Photo credit: Mina Gerngross
Leigh: If the neurohacking and performance-oriented approaches are not the point, as you say, what is the point? Or, put otherwise, what is your ultimate intent with your work?
Emily: It’s such a buzzword, but for me, it really is about presence. And authenticity. And discerning new options. Becoming more consciously embodied is a door to being more present to what is happening in and around me, because all of that is happening through my body. Or the term I prefer and that we also use in the book: bodymind. One word. Because the findings over the past thirty years or so from a variety of academic disciplines all point to the fact that body and mind are different aspects of the same intertwined thing. It can feel like we have a mind that is separate from our bodies, but that’s actually a mistaken perception that we’ve all grown up with in this strange and disconnected modern world we live in.
So when people learn to have a grounded and more nuanced understanding of (and respect for) the responses and the signals that are coming up in their bodyminds, which might be in the form of different sensations, thoughts, emotions, feelings and memories, and are able to accurately connect them with the context of what is happening in the moment, more possibilities open up.
A simple example of this might be: you’re in a predictable and increasingly frustrating conversation with a work colleague or family member where each of you gets caught in your habitual entrenched position and the conversation gets no further. We all know this feeling. But if one or both of you notice the pattern happening, notice that familiar sensation of annoyance and frustration coming on, ideally sooner than later, there is a chance that someone can make a different move than usual. That could be simply taking a deep breath, standing up and pausing one side of the conversation, or suggesting eating something together and going to a movie instead, or daring to ask a deeper question about what this is really about and why do we actually keep having this conversation again and again?
It might seem like a small example, but the ability to make those kinds of different moment-to-moment decisions will have a huge impact on that relationship over time, allowing it to transform in a way that it wouldn’t otherwise.
STATE Studio presentation during Berlin Science Week: Updating Descartes: We Think With Our Bodies with Dr. Kerstin Lücker. Photo credit: Mina Gerngross
So that’s what it’s about for me: being in an ongoing process of accessing and trusting the intelligence of my bodymind, in the moment, to discern options I didn’t perceive before in order to try new things and see what happens next. I know that’s a mouthful! It’s another way of saying: being fully present in the moment, seeking to understand my responses to things, staying open to new experiences and increasingly trusting my own perception. I think we can learn to do that by intentionally growing our embodied awareness.
And I think this is one part of why Guy [Claxton] and I get along so well – he describes our best, most interesting conversations as ‘so visceral.’ And it's true, we both get energized and lit up about the same kinds of things and we can both feel it when we’re in a good flow of thinking together, for instance while working on the book and being repeatedly surprised at where the process takes us.
When you manage to bring what we usually think of as the high-level cognitive together with the embodied, there's a state of resonance and coherence that is so much fun. You can feel when ideas resonate, you can feel when communication is viscerally good. You can also feel when something’s blocked, even if you don’t know why. Those responses are all useful information.
Empathic Organization Connection Lab: Listening to Urgency - Finding New Ways Forward. Photo credit: Dominik Tryba
So it really is a kind of training in staying curious—curious about both the moments of coherence and the moments of discomfort. It might sound like a cliché because it’s said so often these days, but it is a genuine practice that takes work: learning to stay with things that feel uncomfortable (without going reactive) and trying to understand them, even if understanding might only come later, if at all, as well as noticing when there’s flow, coherence and agreement. It’s work we all have to do in different situations and it’s very embodied.
Leigh: This reminds me a lot of what Anne Caspari has written and spoken about – that this discomfort is often (unhelpfully) ‘facilitated away’ in group settings, and that it always catches up with us ultimately. It’s also really helpful for this Cohere+ research to consider how coherence relates to embodiment (also why I wanted to speak with you!).
More on the coherence front, on your website you describe how embodiment tools ‘support wellbeing as well as coherent decision making in work settings and beyond.’ How do you help clients get to that point where they are able to discern better? And what does ‘embodied coherence’ feel like in your perspective?
Emily: To that last question, coherence feels like a kind of flow to me, or an opening. It’s something that makes me alert and relaxed. There’s a sense of exchange, and it doesn’t only happen with people. I also experience it in my garden with plants and with animals. And I can also feel when it's not there, because something feels off somehow, or stuck, tense or blocked.
In terms of helping clients learn to discern more, and this is true both one-on-one and in groups, I really believe that one main piece is collecting new, or at least different, experiences than usual, because then you have things to compare. And it really does take practice, in the same way as learning a new language or a musical instrument does. So to start building muscles of discernment, try doing something noticeably out of the ordinary, even if it’s a simple physical exercise for 30 seconds that you normally wouldn’t do, like standing on one leg or twenty punches in the air above your head, or saying hello and smiling at someone you normally wouldn’t, and then notice the difference in how you feel afterwards compared to before, and last step: try to put that change into language. No matter how trivial it might seem, do your best to be as precise as possible in naming the change. Things like, ‘My right foot feels more spread out than my left’ or ‘I feel slightly more awake’ or ‘Now I notice that there is space behind me’ or ‘The corners of my mouth are going up a tiny bit, yes, that is the start of a smile’ all count.
Then you’re training that embodied awareness muscle – and understanding that your physical actions actually change your mental and emotional states, and vice versa. Then keep going from there, collecting more new experiences, becoming increasingly aware of nuances and subtle changes, and putting those into language, too. These skills are basic building blocks of growing more embodied awareness in daily life.
Embodiment at Work facilitating at the Fellows Forum for the Kreativbund Germany. Photo credit: Mina Gerngross
A key term in embodiment science that relates to this is interoception. It’s been getting a lot of attention over the past few years and there’s a growing body of research behind it. Science journalist Caroline Williams, whom I recently had the pleasure of working with on a project called Move4Schools in London that we highlight in our upcoming book, has a new popular science book out about interoception called Inner Sense for anyone interested in a fresh introduction to the topic.
In short, interoception is another name for our ability to sense the inner signals of our bodies, things like our heartbeat, body temperature, sensations of hunger, thirst, tiredness and muscle tension and relaxation. As we’ve been discussing, this is important because our interoceptive awareness, our ability to notice and accurately interpret those signals of our bodies, along with helping us care for our basic physical needs, also helps us make sense of our emotions. I might learn, for example, that anger shows up for me as a tight clench in my stomach, chest or jaw, while the feeling of being happy and excited comes with a very different opening movement and lighter feeling in my whole body.
This is important, because, again, the more I can accurately notice what’s happening physically, the more clearly I can discern and interpret my bodymind responses and take action accordingly. Neuroscientist Antonio Damasio has a great term for this embodied guidance system that he calls our ‘somatic rudder’. Our somatic rudder is formed through our experiences, and yes, it can get damaged and messed up in different ways throughout our lives, and it’s up to us to care for and recover it (ourselves) the best we can. There’s a lot more to say about this, but that is for another conversation.
In short, my deepest interest is to make these ideas tangible for people, to give them simple ways of experiencing them directly, and for those who want to, ways to keep practicing. Ideally, everyone would learn these basic skills in school, but for those of us who didn’t, or still won’t, it’s never too late to start. The truth is that in modern life most of us are dissociated from our experience to varying degrees most of the time—we’ve been educated to sit for hours on end, taught to function at all costs and to rest by watching screens, often deeply disconnected from what our bodies are telling us moment to moment. But when we manage to safely reclaim pieces of our embodiment step by step, things get more alive, and even if not always comfortable, that is a good thing.
Empathic Organization New Movement Movement Weekly Online Practice. Photo credit: Lucas Adrian
Leigh: One of our partners in the Cohere+ project, Life Itself, has created an ecosystem map of ‘Second Renaissance’ organizations, and I'm thinking now speaking with you that something like this could be really interesting for the embodiment world, given how much is happening right now.
Amidst the proliferation of ‘embodied’ approaches popping up now, what do you believe are the right paths forward, and how do we avoid certain misuses of embodiment?
Emily: An ecosystem map for embodiment sounds like a great idea that would be helpful on many levels. And I would say again that, like in so many things, it’s about training that muscle of pattern recognition and discernment so that you can notice when a concept or practice is getting co-opted or misused in some way. It can be tricky to discern at first, but we can often feel when it happens, and over time learn to trust that feeling more and more. That has definitely been my experience. And that kind of co-opting can happen with anything – for example, science can be invoked in a way that shuts things down, or in a way that opens things up, and the same is true with embodiment. Sometimes of course we might realize it too late, and have to do larger course corrections, but that is also important learning, even if sometimes painful.
Leigh: Where have you seen this work enter into the metamodern and liminal ecosystems, and who should we be paying attention to on the research front?
Emily: There’s so much amazing work out there to explore, I feel like I’ve only touched the tip of the iceberg so far. One person I discovered recently who I feel is making great contributions on multiple levels is Andrea Hiott. She writes about ‘way-making’ and discusses both mind and movement as shared aspects of our ongoing process of navigating our way through life. [Ed. note: She’s spoken with Iain McGilchrist and, recently, Alexander Beiner.] In terms of their alignment with an embodied approach I also deeply appreciate the work of Nora Bateson, Vanessa Andreotti, John Vervaeke, Zak Stein, Daniel Schmachtenberger and Bonnita Roy, among many others. I can also recommend checking out the podcast and work of Rafe Kelly and team at Evolve Move Play. While writing the book I had a number of extremely helpful conversations about movement, perception and play with Aaron Cantor, who also works regularly with Bonnita Roy.
On the research front I think many more people should know about the work of neuroscientist Mary Helen Immordino-Yang on emotions, learning, and motivation in teenagers, and something she calls transcendent thinking. She shows very clearly that young peoples’ capacity to empathise and imagine someone else's situation is correlated with higher satisfaction and success later in life. Her work points out that neurological development and character development go hand in hand, which makes perfect sense to me and definitely supports the case for rethinking how education is practiced.
Empathic Organization Connection Lab: Listening to Urgency - Finding New Ways Forward. Photo credit: Dominik Tryba
Leigh: Finally, I’m curious about your recent experience of co-authoring the book on embodiment and learning, and anything you’ve discovered through that process that you’re now incorporating into your life and work.
Emily: Co-authoring the book has been one of the most challenging and rewarding things I’ve done in a long time, complete with many moments of deep discomfort and phases of wanting to quit along the way. I’ve come to understand this is fairly normal in some peoples’ writing processes, but I completely underestimated it. Luckily I’ve had an incredibly supportive group of people and a wonderful and experienced co-author to help me find my way. I’ve experienced again and anew that thinking and knowing truly are embodied and relational, and that it’s when those connections get lost that things start to go badly.
In the end embodiment is how we are in our lives and in the world. It’s about feeling out our capacities and capabilities, testing and stretching them, discovering the range of possibilities we can perceive and imagine in our current circumstances, and then about what we do with that, on our own and with others.
When I felt alone and got lost in feeling overwhelmed and incapable in the face of a lot of complexity while writing, I couldn’t do much, if anything. That feeling is hard to tolerate and I wanted to escape it by quitting. When I went for a walk and calmed down, talked to a trusted person, took some time away, found my way back to what I care about most, recalled (or was reminded) that I do actually have a lot of experience to draw from, got the right help when I needed it and took serious care of things like enough space, light, food, sleep, movement and enjoying life, my thinking started moving again and the fun reemerged. Going through those ups and downs often enough and in different ways has made the waves smaller and me more steady as I face the next challenging tasks, however imperfectly. I think that’s called learning and it is definitely embodied.
And that’s what I think should happen much more at school.
Leigh, thank you so much for the great questions. There is so much more to discuss and I look forward to our next conversation!
Empathic Organization Connection Lab: Listening to Urgency - Finding New Ways Forward. Photo credit: Dominik Tryba
Words by Leigh Biddlecome
Leigh is an American writer, facilitator, and interdisciplinary consultant based in Berlin and Florence.
